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Distros, Platforms, And Where We Fit In
Submitted by DanRabbit on Thu, 08/04/2011 - 19:18We often get asked to distribute software like LibreOffice, Firefox, Google Chrome, WINE, applications that use Qt, etc. And for the traditional Linux distribution this is a perfectly reasonable request. The typical distro make up for home users consists of a kind of software Top 40 where the distributors pick out their favorite existing apps and bundle them together along with their favorite existing theme. Then they usually have some sort of branded default wallpaper. Maybe they'll go the extra mile to replace splash screens (Yes some apps do still have splash screens) with branded ones. Sometimes a distributor will even contribute "upstream" in order to lobby certain changes. And very rarely a distributor will create their own software as a little special something.
I like to refer to this as quilt work.
If you've ever seen a quilt before, the first thing you'll notice is that it's almost always comprised of separate little squares. You can very clearly see where one square ends and where another square begins. And there's an interesting point to this in that (speaking purely about look and feel) it's very possible to look at one piece of the quilt and say "ooh I like this very much" and yet look at another piece of the quilt and say "This is rather ugly, isn't it?" Another interesting thing about quilts is that quilt makers spend a good amount of time trying to position the pieces so that they work well together. What I mean is that they're taking existing completed work and trying (in vain) to make a coherent looking product. And, you know, at the end of the day the important thing is that it's going to keep you warm at night, right? It's fully functional. It does it's job just fine. It's interesting and unique and all that stuff. However...
Designer bedrooms don't feature quilts.
What is this crazy person getting at talking about quilts and nonsense? Well let's go back to where we started about distributions. If elementary OS were simply a distribution (a quilt, so to speak), there would be absolutely no problem in shipping applications that don't necessarily follow our HIG or use the same toolkit, or the same libraries. It'd be okay to ship applications that don't share data with one another. And it'd probably even be okay for our team to internally create apps that don't behave in similar ways because, well, none of the other apps we ship do. And we could happily call ourselves yet another Linux distribution.
I assert that elementary OS is not a Linux distribution.
Or at least that we don't aim to be. No, we'd rather be a software platform. A unified computer operating system. That means having a commitment to a particular toolkit (GTK+) and supporting a preferred programming language (Vala). It means deciding how our apps will behave. It means taking control and shaping the out-of-the-box experience as much as we possibly can by creating our own apps. It means creating an application development framework like Granite and other developer tools that are designed to help developers build apps specifically for our platform. We will absolutely not be just another compilation album.
It's kinda interesting to me that you're claiming to be creating an operating system whereas all you do is create a desktop environment. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see any elementary-developer working on the infrastructure of a Linux system, i.e. nobody is working on network manager, init systems, sound architecture, graphics stacks etc. You're basically taking the work of Ubuntu who already takes it from the individual upstream projects.
By the way, I'd like to learn about the logic on deciding Vala as your development language. Qt(C++) should have better fit, because then all your application could have been cross platform AND native-looking. I guess you're targeting something unique as a platform that I object.
https://code.launchpad.net/elementary/+branches
No, we're not building an operating system from the ground up; that'd be stupid and a waste of resources when solid open source bases exist. But we are building an operating system. We have created a build system and are making low-level decisions related to the whole OS, not just the DE.
With your logic, Ubuntu is not an operating system, just a DE. Ubuntu didn't create Linux nor the graphics stack. But I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Ubuntu is not an operating system. Quite frankly, it's insulting to me that you'd discredit elementary OS as an operating system simply because we didn't work on the infrastructure of the open source projects we're built on. Why waste our development time and efforts when there are people infinitely more qualified already doing the work, and doing a dang good job at it?
I wish I could make an elementary sticker for laptops (e.g. Intel Inside, Windows 7, NVIDIA).
And the saying would be "Built for simplicity" or "Powered by elementary".
:D
--
Congrats for having more than 4000 users!
Let's make this even bigger!
Maybe you can convince UnixStickers.com to offer them. I've a "Gnu/Linux powered" sticker to replace the Windows 7 Sticker :)
Hello DanRabbit i just signed up after reading a couple comments. I love Linux for the customization and the ability to just play around with my computer more than i can under Windows. I love the idea of having everything working together seamlessly rather than 1000s of different applications cobbled together from all over the web, i have high hopes for the whole experience you guys are creating!
The word you are looking for is a desktop environment. You're trying to create a desktop environment, and a distro featuring that very desktop environment.
The idea of creating a bunch of applications following some unified guidelines is nothing new. KDE and GNOME is about the exact same thing (just with different guidelines).
I appreciate what you're doing, and the DE you're creating look very promising. But I don't understand why you're trying to make it sound as if the concept is something new or unique. The only new thing is that you're making a DE and a distro at the same time.
Indeed, we are creating a desktop environment. But this is a byproduct of creating an OS with a need to be a cohesive developer platform and a consistent user experience.
I never said it was something new. Mac OS and Windows have done it since the very beginning. But for Linux based operating systems... well I don't really know of a single one that goes the whole way. KDE and GNOME are not operating systems. Nor is XFCE, LXDE, or any of the other existing DE's.
If you think all we're doing is creating a DE and slapping it on a disc, you're missing the point.
Dan, I'm new to the project, however I think your vision is right and I really hope you understand one key thing that Apple (iOS, MacOSX), Google (Android) and Microsoft (.NET) understand: DEVELOPER IS KING. I like when you say "...But this is a byproduct of creating an OS with a need to be a cohesive developer platform and..." They key concept is COHESIVE DEVELOPER PLATFORM. If you can stick to that vision, you will revolutionize Linux just as Mark Shuttleworth did a few years ago. Your vision is the next step. One SDK, one IDE, one set of guidelines, and one Software Center to sell or share your apps with the world. One consistent desktop experience. For all the guys that prefer full freedom of choice, a thousand settings to tweak, and all the potential mess it brings, there will always be traditional Linux Distros. Congratulations.
I had to make an account because I needed to say how awesome this distro is! I've been a Linux "Fanboy" for maybe 2 years and this is one OS that I cannot stay away from. Like others have said I hopped from Ubuntu to Fedora to Opensuse to You-Name-It; however, what you guys are doing with this distro is just crazy. I really haven't seen so much developer creation behind a distro. I love the fact that you set up a standard system for those who want to just use it and for those, like myself, who would want to tinker can do so! It's such a good user experience for those new to linux that it has given me new hope in moving my family and friends with slow old machines to a new system they can enjoy and that'll be safe. Thanks so much for all the hard work! :)
Glad I stumbled upon this distro, I saw a youtube video showing it off and I just had to have it :-) I spent less time customizing than I usually do with most distro's I've tried, I believe this is going to be the one to watch and I am sure it is going to climb in popularity, all involved in this project has done a great job, I look forward to seeing the things that will evolve in elementary Os, keep up the good work!
I use ubuntu 11:04 as love the power user functions and i love jupiter. i cant wait for luna, it would be great if you developed your own app centre for 0.4 due to the release of USC-GTK3, when is drag and drop and add to launcher coming to slingshot?
The OS indeed is great, and i am waiting for the new version, i just wish it was based on another distro rather than ubuntu, Arch linux maybe. also i wish you change the concept of the two panels, i am sure you can figure something smarter, btw i am new programmer i am learing python and qt, already created a calculator(simple one though), but after reading the post and comments i may change my mind and go for vala and gtk+, but can i know vala not python, gtk not qt ?
thanks and good luck:)
Hmm... I think you're missing point. If it is based on Arch, it would definitely be much harder to learn if you were a newbie. I mean, even the site is so simple. And also, they said that "they're not Linux" which means that they are not debating on "which distro as a base". Ubuntu is definitely best suited for (most) people, period (in few years it will be elementary although:-) ). I think that "doing" things on elementary would be generally much harder both for newbies, both for experts. I mean, why bother compiling everything (for most of people and newbies)... BTW. I know it is not all about newbies, newbies, newbies, but from that side, you can compile whatever you want on Ubuntu (elementary) too.
Good luck. Hope you unterstood what's my point, but if you don't seem to agree, you should contact someone "official" since I'm not
and will there be Compiz installed in the next release by default ?
Compiz is already installed. Look for it, or
sudo apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager
Would you implement Ease in a future release?
We wanted to include Ease in Jupiter, but it's been unmaintained for a while now and it's very buggy. If someone where to revive/fork it we'd definitely consider it again.
I agree. elementary is much more of a "Comforter" than a "Quilt" :)
Yup....my distro hopping days are over.
elementary fits the bill for me.
This is exactly what I'm expecting from elementary OS: GO ON!!
I have to say that I love the vision that you have for elementary OS but I am sad about the platform that you have chosen. I wish that you had chosen Qt. I love Qt especially moving forward with things like Qt Quick. I love how KDE has implemented scripting across apps with JavaScript. It makes it so easy for a web developer like me (or the hordes of others) to jump right in and start making cool apps. As much as I would like to jump in its a little intimidating having to learn Vala and GTK+.
While I understand your thinking, it's important to remember that we've chosen our platform after much (sometimes heated) discussion and thought. Qt is an excellent framework and has a lot of capabilities. But as far as scripting with JavaScript and using web technologies on a desktop, it's important to remember that our first goals are simplicity and speed. We're using languages made specifically for the desktop, and as such, we get some incredible performance. As far as learning Vala and GTK+ goes, we're working on a developer's guide to ease that. Keep your eyes on the Journal for an announcement when it's completed. Also keep in mind that Vala is a very easy language to learn since it's similar in syntax to other languages, but it compiles to C, so it's very speedy. Lastly, if you're a web developer and interested in contributing, you can always help with the website or the GTK3 theme. :)
Just registered so I could drop a quick note: I started using Linux around 4 months ago and have been "distro-hopping" from Ubuntu to Mint to PCLinuxOS to numerous other distributions. The one thing I noticed about all of them was that they felt disjointed and incohesive. None of them provided the type of user experience I wanted, and most of them required too much tweaking before I considered them usable on a productive basis.
Then I stumbled across a comment on the OMG!Ubuntu blog where someone mentioned elementary. Curiosity got the best of me, so I came to the site to check it out, downloaded the ISO, and I've never looked back. elementary has put an end to my distro-hopping and I'll be using it exclusively in the future.
Thank you to all of the devs who put in the time and hard-work to make elementary such a delight to use. I fully embrace and stand behind the vision of the project and can't wait to see where it goes in the future. In the meanwhile, I can hardly contain my excitement for "Luna" later this year!!
That's awesome! I'm glad you've found elementary and call it home. We're happy to have you as part of our userbase. :)
I like that you elementary developers have a strong vision, and that you're working to make it a reality. elementary is the first Linux distribution that I've liked enough to refrain from "tweaking" ad-infinitum. I like it just the way it is (Mr. Rogers reference not necessarily intended, though it doesn't hurt!).
I like that the overall look and feel of elementary draws inspiration from the Mac - afterall, I grew up using Macs. My heart, however, is with the Linux community these days. Beautiful as Apple's stuff is, it just doesn't have that underdog, grass-roots, appeal that originally attracted me to their platform back in the day.
It's probably worth mentioning, too, that Apple's success is largely due to their willingness to "limit" users' options to those that work well. Their lack of inclusivity is a large part of what allows Apple to excel at what they choose to focus on. I see elementary as following a similar philosophy.
Keep up the great work, guys. Excited about Luna a few months from now.
Thanks for your comment, Ben. We do draw inspiration from many places, including Apple. It's important to remember, however, that we also simply have a focus on good design, which oftentimes gets mistaken for being "Apple-like."
Regarding limiting users' options, we actually have a fairly balanced philosophy. We believe that, by default, we should provide the users with the best and most sensible setup. We make a point to simplify things so they're easier to use than your typical computer, which makes people love it. However, we're not so limiting as to actively prevent users from changing things. Most anything that seems "locked down" can be unlocked by a more advanced or tinkering user. This way your typical user gets the best setup, but anyone who wants it set up differently can have their way as well.
Agreed. elementary doesn't feel "derivative" to me. You guys have your own original creation on your hands.
Hope to see Granite and Contractor be available soon coz I really want to give your project a hand by creating an small but useful apps in Vala
Contractor is already available and ready to use when beeing used as a service provider, this is really easy to acheive, take a look at http://elementaryos.org/docs/apis/contractor/writing-contract if that's what you're after
I've been using you OS since day one and no other distro has ever been on my computer this long, but I have a concern about it being a Mac look alike. don't get me wrong. I think OSX is great but I would rather see different design approach. For year Linux tried to be a windows look alike and I don't want Linux to look alike some other OS anymore.
We appreciate your continued support of elementaryOS. I would like to point out that the developers are not following a design principle of copying the Mac OS down to the Kool-Aid flavor. What you see in the theme is simply pleasing to the eyes of the designers, and not a copycat theme.
It has been said before that there are only a limited number of ways you can design an interface before you start to repeat what other designers have done. Instead of attempting to create a brand new interface for people to learn and complain about, the elementaryOS developers have used tried and true design techniques from multiple sources and created a good looking, simple interface. We won't deny that it does look and feel a bit like Mac OS, but there are a lot more differences than similarities.
One of the things that elementaryOS doesn't copy from either OS is the AppMenu (gear icon) for a less cluttered interface. The first place I saw that was in Google Chrome, and it was a stark deviation from both the Mac OS and Windows standard. If you look for these differences, you will find that elementaryOS stands on its own.
The elementaryOS developers are not striving to copy an old design, they are striving to develop a new desktop, streamlined for productivity and usability.
This is very ambitious but definitely the right way forward. Consistency is important for learnability and the interaction between the separate applications make them much more useful than the applications on their own. Obviously it's difficult to modify old applications with established code bases to work well together so starting from scratch is an understandable thing to do.
The only problem with this approach is resources. Application development is very difficult and time consuming even when 'standing on the shoulders of giants' by using existing libraries. How does the small team of part time developers cope with this challenge?
Developers should be "open source" itself.
Each developer could spend 1 hour of his time to another person. Maybe
using remote desktop. Than this person spend 1 hour of his time to
teach another person. Or spend his time to help in what project they
want.
The system could base on points and badges. To bind people to put their effort into the elementary
projects.
To get one hour more of teaching or points, the person should spend
one hour to teach another person. Or to help in various elementary projects
fixing bugs, make sites and so on.
Look at the comments to those videos. There are people wo want to
learn programming. http://vimeo.com/26739037
You can evolve the idea further. Brainstorm and discuss it. Maybe you get more developer this way for elementary project.
Give it a try.
I feel the same way. Generally, successful projects tend to attract more dedicated developers as time goes by, but I'm hoping to see calls for developers, too. It has a lot of potential, but it can definitely use much more manpower. (Before anyone asks: I'm learning C# for a summer job right now, and I hope to convert those skills to Vala once that job is over...)
Resources have always been a problem indeed and we are spread thin, but we tend to turn this into an engineering challenge and use it to our advantage. For example with contractor we knew that we wanted to implement the same kind of functionality across multiple applications. So we created a system service to handle that and save us a lot of time coding. We're working on Granite to help us build apps faster, to put our custom widgets in the same place and save devs time writing the same code over and over. Basically, we're meeting this challenge by crafting elementary into an excellent developer platform. Also, keep in mind that while we may be writing a lot of the apps from scratch we are using existing libs like WebKit, Bamf, Dockmanager, etc and we do contribute upstream to them ;)
I love the path this project is taking.
If there is something I really like about Mac OS is that everything fits together.
And I love the Mac-ish style of elementary.
I'm really looking forward to see and try the new version!
I feel this is gonna be a huuuge project.
elementary is going in the right direction.
Good job!
Great post.
I really like how committed you are with the vision you have for elementary.
I know you have a lot of work to do but I already can see where the project is heading and how focus all the devs are to go in that direction.
This is one of the main reasons why I'm following this project.
Thank you very much for clearing that up. As I see it however, elementary is still a "linux distribution" for now, but I completely understand that the final objective is to create original software's to ship with the OS.
My main concern would be about all those specifically developed application, I know that everything here is open source, but will it be easy for other distributions users to actually run these ? Will elementary applications developers end up imprisoned by this unified "application development framework" ?
I have had some of the same concerns, but they have been put to rest by a packaging hackfest blueprint.
The developers do not want to get locked in to their own little coding party. They are open source advocates, and as such, they see the need to reach out and help make at least some of the elementaryOS experience available to users of other distributions. Of course, this will take some effort from packagers from other distributions, or none of this will get done.
Regardless, the source code will always be available on Launchpad for compilation, and this community is friendly enough to provide aid to anyone who asks, no matter what platform they hail from.
I quite like the Mac feel to be honest. It's nice to have a very straight forward interface where one application follows the next in terms of overall feel and appearance, while possibly doing totally different things functionally. I think sometimes people get it in their heads that once an operating system is defined in terms of its features and aesthetics that if another operating system does the same, it's "copying", saying it like it is a bad thing. Though I like to think of the appearance as more heavily influenced by OSX rather than a copy, myself, I do hope that you never change the look drastically.
nice post! well I think the elementary team is really doing a reat job,I mean, it isn't easy, with some big distros like ubuntu,fedora, doing the thing he said above, packing some existing programs, put them ''together'' with a nice theme, what you guys are doing, is much like Mac os, of course, wyou gus use some existing programs, like gnumeric,abiword,shotwell...but all these apps fit well in the system, all seems o be integrated...it's just nice, and good looking.
I agree with the post and I feel the same way. elementary OS need not be a Linux distro. In my mind is like the Mac OS and Darwin Kernel... Mac has a bsd kernel ... but, he isn't a bsd distro.
"elementary OS. The best blanket ever!" Heh, I'm really happy to see this. Having too many choices can be confusing and often focuses more on quantity rather than quality. I'm looking forward to the day where I'll dive back into some programming and I don't have to ask what should I program this in and what tools I should use, which one is the easiest, etc. I can just download elementary's tools, use Vala, and go from there!
Great post, though I do have one criticism, though I'm sure you are expecting it:
"I assert that elementary OS is not a Linux distribution. Or at least that we don't aim to be. No, we'd rather be a software platform."
Why shy away from this? I mean, you're an operating system distribution build on/with the Linux platform. elementary is what Linux users *should* be doing with their creative and software freedom -- creating a harmonious software platform, with distributions for particular interests, freedom, security, or fun. Just because elementary doesn't want to be associated with the, let's face it, not-so-great image of the Linux ecosystem doesn't mean that it's not a Linux distribution.
Or perhaps I'm overreading this and you're trying to say that, rather than focusing on being a part of the Linux ecosystem, you're focusing on being really nice software. In which case, good on you.
That said, keep up the great work. I think Luna will be great.
I would say that the point is not to shy away from Linux, but to emphasize the difference of this distribution over all others. When I first became a Linux "fanboy", I would sit at my computer for hours browsing distrowatch.com, trying to find the distribution that was right for me. I quickly grew tired of all of them, because they all used the same keywords: "ease of use", "stability", "speed", "flexibility". All of these are great goals to have for an operating system, but each time I tried a new one, I only saw one or two small differences, while the core applications stayed exactly the same. Most of the time, they were very slight modifications of an existing major distribution.
With elementaryOS, I am refreshed to find a shift in focus from compiling a list of the developer's favorite apps. Instead, they are using the strengths of Linux and some stable open source libraries to create a rich, unified user experience.
That is something that I can get behind and believe in.
Indeed the emphasis should have been on the *distribution* part. We're not trying to be another distro and ship a collection of mis-matched third-party software.